BlueSaab v6.1

[homerisback]

Hi,
@Karlis, could you confirm that v6.1 firmware uses the same authority level as OpenSid does over i-bus ?
If yes, I assume that OpenSid won't work with both versions of v6.1 (either scrolling and non-scrolling)...
Thanks ;)

[Karlis]

If you are referring to SID access, then I assume yes - both OpenSid and BlueSaab are using the highest message priority. This means that on cars that have OpenSid enabled, BlueSaab will not work with SID text control feature enabled.

[homerisback]

Yes, this is what I meant... I'll have a bunch of v6.1 build and give it a try in my car with OpenSid enabled.
Thanks

[Jerome]

Hi,

why v6 is conflicting with OpenSid when v5 didn't have any problem with that ? (afaik)

[Karlis]

Both v5.x and v6.x will conflict with OpenSID if BlueSaab SID text control is enabled. This is because both OpenSID and BlueSaab use the same SID resource request type but coming from two different nodes. SID will get confused if there are two requests coming in with the same type, so it will be first come/first serve type of access -> lot's of flickering.

[Jerome]

Is it possible to detect he OpenSid messages from Bluesaab ?

[Karlis]

Technically - yes.

[Jerome]

So when an OpenSid message is detected, you could store the time of the event.
When BlueSaab wants to send a message, first check that about x seconds have elapsed since the last OpenSid message.

This way you could somewhat suspend Bluesaab sid text control when OpenSid is active..

Doable or not ?

[Karlis]

It's a bit more complicated than that.

If a node (OpenSID, BlueSaab, TWICE, DICE, etc.) has the capability to write on SID, it has to send out SID resource requests every second. These requests have a byte that tells SID if the resource is needed immediately or "I can write to SID, but at this moment I don t want to".

In theory if BlueSaab has been granted access to SID and OpenSID comes in, BlueSaab could detect that and step down. However, SID will not grant OpenSID access because BlueSaab is already using the top priority access type. Even if SID switches between the two I'm pretty sure it will cause a lot of flickering -> bad UX.

We have to remember that OpenSID is based on a tool SAAB engineers used to gather test metrics from engine runs so while running the tool they did not care (did not grant) about any other equipment on the car except for engine management system.

[Jerome]

Bluesaab could also suspend resource requests ? Then OpenSid should takeover right ?
But probably too much complicated compared to the benefits to get...

[Karlis]

Yes, requests can be suspended. However, remember that those requests are supposed to appear on the bus in a timely manner. It can't be like "Hey, BlueSaab here, I don't need access to SID now" ... (a few minutes later with no info at all) .. "oh, by the way, BlueSaab here again, I need access to SID now". This is against the spec. Not saying it would not work, it's just making my inner OCD super unhappy.

[Jerome]

Yes

But requesting the same access from two different nodes at the same time s probably out of specs as well.

[Jerome]

Hi Karlis,

I'm a bit confused here. In the past you used the SPA node id (0x1f) for BlueSaab. Is it still the case in v6 ?

I'm asking this because I know someone who is using bluesaab 5.x with OpenSid without any issue at all. So if there is no change in the code maybe the difference is that the v6 is much faster than v5 so flickering happens a lot more now.

I understand that you use top priority access type (Engineering test request type I think). Why not use Emergency level only ? It should be enough to override the IHU events. Did you try this ?

[Karlis]

Both v5.x and v6.x are requesting SID access on behalf of SPA node. BlueSaab and OpenSID will co-exist on the same car as long as only one of them is engaged at a time. Using OpenSID while BlueSaab is active will cause problems.

[1S2A1B]

Karlis wrote

CDC connector is made by TYCO-AMP-TE CONNECTIVITY; part #827229-1. One place we we used to purchase these from "Connector People" are selling them now for a price of an arm and a leg. So look for alternative sources...

"Connector People" have it in stock for $21.98, which seems reasonable enough, considering everywhere else has minimum quantities of 1,080, several month lead times, and not much cheaper unit prices. Was the price way higher before, or is this still the jacked up price?

[Seth]

They used to be ~$8/ea in single quantities but that doesn’t seem to be the case anymore.

You can get them on AliExpress sometimes but usually in qty 5+, plus shipping.

On Fri, Dec 20, 2019 at 15:00 1S2A1B [via BlueSaab Forum] <[hidden email]> wrote:

Karlis wrote

CDC connector is made by TYCO-AMP-TE CONNECTIVITY; part #827229-1. One place we we used to purchase these from "Connector People" are selling them now for a price of an arm and a leg. So look for alternative sources...

"Connector People" have it in stock for $21.98, which seems reasonable enough, considering everywhere else has minimum quantities of 1,080, several month lead times, and not much cheaper unit prices. Was the price way higher before, or is this still the jacked up price?

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[1S2A1B]

Thanks for the tip! I've ordered a 2 pack from AliExpress (seller: Jorch Store) for $8 free shipping. It's supposed to be here in less than 3 weeks.

[1S2A1B]

Problems like annoying display flickering, not like permenantly breaking stuff, right? (Not asking for a guarantee)

We didn't hear back from Homer. I've got OpenSID and I'm working on my 6.1 now. I'll play with it and report the results.

This also makes me curious if BlueSaab will cause problems with T7Suite data logging. The logging connection can be touchy, and viewing certain data in OpenSID makes it more likely to crash. I believe that's just a matter of traffic on the i-bus. From what I've read here so far it seems like the BlueSaab canbus song and dance is pretty basic, so I'm optimistic that it will be fine. It would be sad to have to choose between music and data on long drives.

[Karlis]

I don't know what might happen if both of them are requesting SID access with the same request type. I have not tested that. Maybe I have, but then I don't remember.

OpenSID, mostly, works on P-bus. It’s just the representation of data on SID that uses I-bus. I have OpenSID running on my 2001 9-5 SE V6 in tandem with BlueSaab v6.1 with SID text control enabled. So far I’ve not encountered any issues or flickering. And I’ve used this combo for months now. So I would assume it “should be” ok. Anyway, it would not be a good idea to engage OpenSID while BlueSaab is actively sending data to SID.

As for SID text control on BlueSaab v5.x vs. BlueSaab v6.x, it’s pretty much the same, apart from the fact that data from RN52 Bluetooth module on v6.x gets transferred to MCU at 115200 bps as opposed to 9600 bps on 5.x.

[1S2A1B]

Got 6.1 up and running in car. BlueSaab SID text seems to supersede OpenSID. Typically, pressing both SID buttons (+/-) switches between standard and OpenSID text. That just doesn't work while BlueSaab is the audio source. It comes right back up when you change the source. No big deal, but I'll probably flash the non-SID firmware. I've got to keep an eye on knocks, wideband, e85 adaptation, etc. I'm running a 19T on a 2.0L (bad choice too big), with biopower software modified by a novice (me).

Right my understanding is it's all P-bus data, where loads of values update at their given frequency for engine mgmt. The issue is just how much of it I'm requesting over the comparatively wimpy I-bus each second. If I've got 12 values requested for logging by T7Suite over the OBDII port, and 6 high freq values showing on the SID, eventually the connection to T7suite tends to break up. I guess it's not really a canbus problem, but a problem in the adapter or software losing track when traffic increases. Anyway, no worries now with BlueSaab causing a conflict.

Finally, the 2 cheap connectors from AliExpress I mentioned arrived only a few days late, and work just fine. I did round over the shoulders that the harness grabs onto after having a hard time pushing the connector together, but it's proper glass fiber nylon and the pins are sturdy.